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Author: FD
Date: 25/04/06 01:10
Some fantastic shots you've got there, Simon. Mind me asking how
you get your panoramics looking so good? Software stitching always
seems pants when I try it!
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Author: eldridge
Date: 25/04/06 01:16
The usual excellent pix!
BUT
(there's always a but)
It's the written reports (and the superb maps, when included) that
provide context/explanation/anchorage and I have to keep remembering to
come back later to read all about it!
I'd gladly wait a day or two for a simultaneous pictures+report+map post, so I can get the whole story in one visit.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 01:19
I'd gladly wait a day or two for a simultaneous pictures+report+map post
Oh yeah ? Well, the pics do it for me :-) (and I'm too sleepy to do the map now)
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Author: eldridge
Date: 25/04/06 01:44
simonfbarnes wrote:
> report and map posted... zzzzzzzzzzzz
now that's a fast response
cheers simon
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Author: beefy
Date: 25/04/06 07:32
Sorry to but in, but where is this route, I know the area well and have walked past stanage, but never riden, info please!
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Author: MrNice
Date: 25/04/06 08:18
From the report there seem to be a few cheeky bits between
Cutthroat bridge and Stanage Edge. Did you get much aggro from the
walkers? That could have been what the waspish fell runner was
meaning...
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 08:25
Did you get much aggro from the walkers
out of the 50 walkers we passed, one complained, though according to the map, HE wasn't on a right of way either...
Luckily, we only met ONE on the fantastic rocky DH, and he was
obviously a biker because he asked me about my tyres and knew the
brands.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 08:33
t's the written reports (and the superb maps, when included) that provide context/explanation/anchorage
thanks for your kind words :-) I didn't think anyone else actually read my reports ...
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Author: MrNice
Date: 25/04/06 08:39
Sounds like you got lucky :-) I meet a lot of officious types who
get very uppity about bikes on footpaths (though it's usually because
they don't realise they're on a bridleway). It's only some of the
link-ups that are FPs anyway, the good bits like that DH are legal.
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Author: matt_outandabout
Date: 25/04/06 08:55
Right, am I the one who is going to give you the bollocking? Aside from not being able to spell where you visit…
You are an large, organised club, who takes a big group of riders down
more than a few illegal trails, on a busy Sunday in a sensitive area of
one of our National Parks.
This is an area where real discussions are taking place about banning
4x4’s and trail bikes – how much more of a step is it to ban MTB’s a
well? It has already been suggested a few years ago, and thank fully it
got squashed (I was at the first few Stanage Forum Meetings and managed
to get a word in for the mountain bikers)
I’m not perfect – I have ridden some of those trails, but at night, without too much risk of conflict between trail users.
As an organised club you then advertise the fact and leave evidence, on
a national biking forum and your own website, leaving us all wide open
to criticism. You also lend credence taking this route – there are
already a few above asking for the route and planning to ride it – does
this mean that we have a lot of people then go out and ride this route
next week? (‘the magazine route’ effect).
I find your attitude insensitive to the areas you visit, arrogant to
other trail users and I think you and your club are out of order.
Right, rant over.
Matt
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Author: the-muffin-man
Date: 25/04/06 09:01
Matt, just in case you don't have one handy. Heres a brick wall for you to bang your head against...
...you'll need it by the end of the day, as theres not reasoning with Mr "I'll do what the feck I like" Barnes on this subject.
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Author: JimS
Date: 25/04/06 09:06
"HE wasn't on a right of way either..."
If you are taking a group to ride out of your own area you should at least know the rules.
Walkers can go anywhere on the moor under right to roam, bikers cannot.
Stanage is a high profile area where as a local I would love to ride on
the foot paths but do not as to do so would further worsen the
reputation of mountain bikers in the Peak. Most of your ride was legal
but to avoid too much tarmac you chose to ride along the top of Stanage
which I believe to have been a selfish decision.
In your own backyard footpaths may be legit with local knowledge or at least ride at night or off peak times.
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Author: matt_outandabout
Date: 25/04/06 09:06
I was thinking the same Muffin-man - i remember some posts earlier
about bogtrotters regarding huge groups and innapropriate routes...
It just shows a complete lack of respect for other trail users and other mountainbikers.
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Author: stever
Date: 25/04/06 09:21
Barnes <---------------------> The Point.
Stanage: one of the jewels in one of the busiest National Parks in the
World. In his defence, I actually think it's right to do the wrong
thing sometimes and maybe antagonise people along the way. It really
depends on the circumstances. This time it was the wrong thing. For
Barnes the simple act of antagonisation seems to be the point.
Next week: Bogtrotters annual picnic at Windsor Castle and the Van Hoogstraten Estate. Put it in your diary folks.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 09:26
as theres not reasoning with Mr "I'll do what the feck I like" Barnes on this subject.
Correct, except, it's not just me - I wasn't leading.
Aside from not being able to spell where you visit…
I took the spelling from the map - it looked wrong to me too.
how much more of a step is it to ban MTB’s a well?
unenforcable and therefore pointless
you should at least know the rules.
I am an anarchist, so I don't care about the rules
so would further worsen the reputation of mountain bikers
tosh
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 09:28
For Barnes the simple act of antagonisation seems to be the point.
actually I do it for fun, the antagonism is just an after-ride bonus :-)
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Author: mistertom
Date: 25/04/06 09:32
Sorry, I'm talking b*ll*cks. It is. You'd have been the massive group of about 50 riders we saw at the top of it then.
[Reserving comments on the Stanage bit...]
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Author: Ianmunro
Date: 25/04/06 09:36
http://www.bogtrotters.org/rides/2006/23apr/DSC_0172_.jpg
Lovely.
I've forwarded it to the park authorities.
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Author: matt_outandabout
Date: 25/04/06 09:42
I was hoping for a reasonable adult discussion on the subject, but
I have just read simons response, so im going to take up muffin-mans
wall offer and leave.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 09:43
You'd have been the massive group of about 50 riders we saw at the top of it then.
no, there were 16 of us
I've forwarded it to the park authorities.
Cheers, and I'm the troublemaker ??
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Author: brotherofsteve
Date: 25/04/06 09:47
Well, having read your report and seen your route, I can safely add
your group to the list of mountainbikers who make me ashamed to be one.
Doesn't it occur to you for just one minute that by antagonising people
who have a legitimate right (whether you agree with the law or not) to
be on certain rights of way, you create a bad atmosphere for everyone
else out riding on a busy weekend? I'm not in the slightest bit
surprised that the fell runner you met said "What the **** are you
doing here?" as you cycled up the footpath to Stanage - if I'd seen
you, I'd have had much more to say than that.
For god's sake, grow up, drop all that pathetic "I'm an anarchist" crap
(it's so ridiculous, it's almost laughable), and stop being so bloody
selfish. We all want to carry on riding in the Peaks without getting
the sort of 'welcome' reserved for moto-crossers - and your attitude,
route choices and mob-handed approach are soon going to place us firmly
in that category.
Stanage on a Sunday? Unless you're 13 years old, you should really know better... end of story.
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Author: Wiredchop
Date: 25/04/06 10:00
Have to agree with the general sentiment here. Really not on to
ride stanage footpath considering how busy the area is. I ride that way
quite often and always take care to use the byway or quite spectacular
bridleway down the edge. Political leanings aside, it's always nice to
think of others, the supposed community you belong to and the effect
your actions may have on others.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 10:03
who make me ashamed to be one.
I think we all have far worse things to be ashamed of than this. It really is a storm in a thimble.
drop all that pathetic "I'm an anarchist" crap
I see you find my beliefs offensive, but I shall not change them to please you.
if I'd seen you, I'd have had much more to say than that.
yes, we could have had an entertaining discussion :-)
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Author: brotherofsteve
Date: 25/04/06 10:06
So let me get this straight Simon, you see absolutely nothing wrong
whatsoever in being part of a 16-strong group riding one of the most
popular footpaths in the Peak District on a Sunday afternoon, and then
publicising it with photos and a route map on a national website?
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Author: mistertom
Date: 25/04/06 10:11
I assume your joking about forwarding that to the Park Authority. Because that would really help, wouldn't it...
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Author: richpips
Date: 25/04/06 10:11
Simon, a mountain bike club that advertises itself here and
elsewhere on the internet surely has some responsibility to the wider
mountain biking community.
I notice quite often your club "introduces others" to the sport, which normally I applaud.
I take it you let all the riders know before they set off that "the
route chosen today will involve sections that are not legal to ride on
a bike, and may well upset other park users." ?
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Author: MikeD
Date: 25/04/06 10:13
I find your attitude insensitive to the areas you visit,
arrogant to other trail users and I think you and your club are out of
order.
Amen.
Actually, what I really think is "What an unbelievable bunch of Grade A
***** but I'm not sure that such sentiments have a place on this forum.
edited by mod 13
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Author: Ianmunro
Date: 25/04/06 10:17
I assume your joking about forwarding that to the Park Authority. Because that would really help, wouldn't it...
I think the way to verify is to send them the image and ask "Have you seen this image before?" :)
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Author: arp
Date: 25/04/06 10:18
fat middle aged men ignore rules and bugger it up for the rest of us.
this holds true for so many things in the modern world.
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Author: Akhenaton
Date: 25/04/06 10:19
I'm torn here. I kind of agree with Simon's viewpoint and adopt a
similar approach to most things in my life, not just riding. Some if
not most of the ROW restrictions in England are ridiculous in the
extreme and should be ignored with the individual making the informed
choice based apon trail conditions and levels of usage by other
parties, not based on some outdated set of regulations dreamed up by a
bored civil servant in some dusty office somewhere in Surrey.
But...its also about being smart. Riding that area at that time with that many people is not smart.
There's nothing 'crappy' about being an anarchist, its just what
responsibility you choose to exert when you reject the rules of the
state.
Great pics, great trails, wrong time, too many riders.
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Author: matt_outandabout
Date: 25/04/06 10:21
You are IMBA affiliated yes?
From IMBA's Uk consitution....
DRAFT CONSTITUTION OF IMBA UK (June 2004)
1. NAME
1.1 The name of the organisation shall be IMBA UK.
2. MISSION
2.1 To promote environmentally sound and socially responsible mountainbiking.
2.2 To work to create new trails, and keep trails and public access
open for mountainbiking by encouraging responsible riding, supporting
volunteer trailwork and cooperating with other trail user groups, land
managers and public bodies.
3. MEMBERSHIP
3.1 Membership is open to all persons wishing to participate in or support the mission and objectives of IMBA UK.
3.2 An annual membership fee will be decided by the Executive
Committee, with any changes taking place on 1st January. Subscriptions
must be paid by all members, unless specified exceptions have been made
by the Executive Committee.
3.3 Members are required to observe the mission and rules of
IMBA UK at all times. Failure to do so will lead to the cancellation or
refusal of membership.
Righttime to get you lot booted out of IMBA then.
Matt
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Author: matt_outandabout
Date: 25/04/06 10:23
[]i]IMBA-UK promotes mountain biking in the UK & Ireland, and defends rights of way for MTBs.
IMBA-UK supports environmentally sound and socially responsible mountain biking.
IMBA-UK works to keep trails and public access open for mountain biking by:
* encouraging responsible riding
* supporting volunteer trail work
* cooperating with trail user groups, land managers and public bodies.
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Author: 49er_Jerry
Date: 25/04/06 10:25
When I saw this thread and the first picture I thought great, this will be nice. Pictures of a ride in 'me own back yarde'.
Had a look a the pictures and could believe the arrogant stupidity of
such a large group of riders on the footpath from Stanage to Cutthroat
Bridge. And, what's more, riding a cheeky trail when the ground is
still very soft and will cut up easily. Like others, I have riden the
path, but alone or in pair duing the evening / night.
The path is regularly patrolled by Nat Park Rangers, one of whom I met
whilst on my bike. Naturally, I claimed ignorance of the path status
(luckily, she didn't see the map in my pack) I was instructed to walk
the rest of the path, which out of deference and respect to the Nat
Park I did. At the far end of the path was another ranger, who had been
informed I was up there and had been summonded to check that I had
indeed walked. He was a very friendly man, who is an MTBer himself and
fully sympathised with the ROW and access issues.
Groups like the one headlining this thread are just what give MTBers a
bad name. A large group that could be perceived as threatening, and
using an illegal trail on a busy afternoon, and when the trail is still
wet and boggy.
Simon, I respect your right to do what the heck you like, but please will you and your group grow up and see the bigger picture.
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Author: mistertom
Date: 25/04/06 10:25
I'd say everybody on here disagrees with the law regarding
footpaths and bridleways. Maybe a Kinder-stylee mass tresspass would be
in order! ;)
It is possibly a little dumb to take a huge group along that route though...
Hang on a minute, I forgot, shame on all of you, you STW PC brigade forum fun killers old mannish conservatives.
Cra*p! I was trying not to join in!
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Author: willyman
Date: 25/04/06 10:31
Fit looking bunch.....
Therefore I doubt it will tarnish the reputaation of 'real' mountain bikers :-)
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Author: geda
Date: 25/04/06 10:37
First rule of cheeky trail riding. You don't talk about cheeky trail riding.
From looking at the age/physique of people in your group :), where you
ride, size of you group I think you should really think of joining
these people. Much more down your street.
{please resist from making personal assaults by using links such as these geda !
Mod 13}
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Author: tlr
Date: 25/04/06 10:44
Its not anarchy, its a just stupid and thoughtless act by people
who clearly don't care about the effects their actions may have on
others.
Some of us live and ride round the Peak all the time, and strengthening
the cause of the Peak Park and Ramblers against bikers doesn't help
anybody.
I doubt the IMBA would ratify the 'group' if they knew what they had done.
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Author: nightfire
Date: 25/04/06 10:48
I agree that simon (or maybe just the bogtrotters on whole) come across as grade A cocks
BUT I am not too happy with Geda's link. Do you think that's funny?
P
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 10:48
you see absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever in being part of a
16-strong group riding one of the most popular footpaths in the Peak
District
correct. ROW law is a ass.
I take it you let all the riders know before they set off
no... the matter doesn't arise
"What an unbelievable bunch of Grade A cocksucking asshat wanktools"
you're entitled to your opinion :-)
fat middle aged men ignore rules and bugger it up for the rest of us.
fat: BMI 22.5
middle aged: I'm past that now
I doubt my being there or taking pictures alters anything
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Author: brotherofsteve
Date: 25/04/06 10:49
Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 24/04/06 00:28
Dave, did no one tell you tarts there's a nice ford to ride through at Watendlath ? The bridge is for walkers...
Surely that's not a 'rule' Simon? ;-)
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Author: MikeD
Date: 25/04/06 10:55
correct. ROW law is a ass.
Now, you see, I fundamentally agree with you here. It's very badly
broken indeed. But if you really cared about doing something about it
you wouldn't be riding highly visible, very popular footpaths in a
National Park in a big group on a spring Sunday. That's just bad PR.
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Author: arp
Date: 25/04/06 10:55
'I doubt my being there or taking pictures alters anything'
seeingg as thos pictures have been emailed to the rangers, and added to the growing pile of anti-bike evidence, I'd say it has.
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Author: geda
Date: 25/04/06 10:59
I am very sorry if you took offence to the link but if it counts
people with asthma as people with disabilities then I think I can take
the p**s out of myself.
I was actually looking for a picture of wooly hats but all they had on the web site were pc "inclusive" pictures.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 11:06
if your anarchists, who organised the ride?
1) I'm the anarchist, not the club
2) IMO anarchism is disregard for the rule of law - not completly random activity
AFAIK most people are anarchists, they just pretend otherwise, or
perhaps think OTHER people should obey the laws, not themselves.
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Author: mistertom
Date: 25/04/06 11:14
It's been pointed out to me that sending pictures to the Park
Authority could be seen by them as a positive thing for riders to be
doing - kind of self policing.
Makes sense, although I'm not entirely convinced...
Discuss.
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Author: matt_outandabout
Date: 25/04/06 11:19
Maybe we need to hear from someone else in Bogtrotters? I have
email bogtrotters via their site (unless its Mr Barnes who picks the
email up…) I would presume that not all their members are either in
agreement; aware of; or condone this ride and now simonfbarnes attitude.
I have also emailed IMBA and CTC requesting that they terminate
Bogtrotters membership/affiliation – the Bogtrotters are members of
these organisations, and would clearly have submitted to their
authority and guidelines when joining.
Matt
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Author: Akhenaton
Date: 25/04/06 11:20
Simon, being an 'anarchist' gives a person total control of
themselves and their actions, IMO it's a state of mind that liberates
us from the state. So fair enough you don't recognise the ROW
restrictions in England. But where is your responsibility? Taking a
large group of bikers across a very sensative area on a weekend morning
when loads of walkers are out, smacks to me of a lack of responsibility
which isn't anarchistic at all, its just thoughtless and selfish.
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Author: geda
Date: 25/04/06 11:21
Bogtotters you are messing with my freedom. Are MOTO cross riders Anarchists??
Quote:
Anarchists are anti-authoritarians because they believe that no human
being should dominate another. Anarchists, in L. Susan Brown's words,
"believe in the inherent dignity and worth of the human individual."
[The Politics of Individualism, p. 107] Domination is inherently
degrading and demeaning, since it submerges the will and judgement of
the dominated to the will and judgement of the dominators, thus
destroying the dignity and self-respect that comes only from personal
autonomy. Moreover, domination makes possible and generally leads to
exploitation, which is the root of inequality, poverty, and social
breakdown.
In other words, then, the essence of anarchism (to express it
positively) is free co-operation between equals to maximise their
liberty and individuality.
Co-operation between equals is the key to anti-authoritarianism. By
co-operation we can develop and protect our own intrinsic value as
unique individuals as well as enriching our lives and liberty for "[n]o
individual can recognise his own humanity, and consequently realise it
in his lifetime, if not by recognising it in others and co-operating in
its realisation for others . . . My freedom is the freedom of all since
I am not truly free in thought and in fact, except when my freedom and
my rights are confirmed and approved in the freedom and rights of all
men [and women] who are my equals." [Michael Bakunin, quoted by Errico
Malatesta, Anarchy, p. 30] [/QUOTE]
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Author: matt_outandabout
Date: 25/04/06 11:22
From Wikipedia:
Anarchism as a political philosophy, is the belief that all forms of
social coercion, such as governments and social hierarchies are
undesireable.
Maybe simonfbarnes should resign from the roles of secretary, treasurer, webmaster and bitch to Adrain'?
Matt
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 11:23
Simon, you really are a **** aren't you?
so I'm told, as if I cared :-)
Simon, I respect your right to do what the heck you like, but please will you and your group grow up and see the bigger picture.
I think we see a different picture. No right was ever won by
conforming, they have to be wrenched unwillingly from those in power.
In any case, life is too short to worry about petty bureaucracy - it's
our country, and we ride it.
If you want to be cross, do it about the massive inhumanity in the world, not minor (possible) misdemeanours
BTW I'm told there is evidence that track was used by pack horses:
I was pointing out to some people on Sunday that all along the top of
that part of Stanage there is a series of water troughs that have been
cut into gritstone slabs - each numbered and with drainage channels cut
to feed them. There is also an old paved section as you get close to
the causeway. To me it looks like evidence that it used to be used
regularly by horses and so may in fact be an old bridleway !
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Author: mistertom
Date: 25/04/06 11:30
Simon, drop the 'let's wrench the right away from those in power
argument'. You're being a little silly with that one, aren't you? (Or
else you haven't realised that going about it this way isn't the way to
do it...)
Organise a big ride with loads of publicity, if you want to do that.
Seriously. But don't pretend that riding irresponsibly like this is
helping to win any rights from anyone.
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Author: UncleNick
Date: 25/04/06 11:32
I am an anarchist, so I don't care about the rules
No, that's just a convenient excuse to trot out when you can't think of
a valid reason to justify your thoughtless and selfish actions.
You're just selfish about your own rights, while accepting no responsibility for the results of actioning them.
That's not middle-aged, that's merely childish.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 11:33
matt_outandabout has ratted me out to the club officials, presumably unaware that I am the club secretary...
He's also reported us to the CTC and IMBA so it's smacked wrists all round!
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 11:37
From Wikipedia:
Anarchism as a political philosophy, is the belief that all forms of
social coercion, such as governments and social hierarchies are
undesireable.
I think you'll find it means what I want it to mean...
Wikipedia ? Isn't that all made up ?
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Author: tribalchief
Date: 25/04/06 11:42
a true anarchist wouldn't call themselves an anarchist, as they would have transcended all reference points
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Author: matt_outandabout
Date: 25/04/06 11:43
Its ok Simon, Harvey's phone number and yours are both on the front
page, i did know you were club secretary, hence why i quoted your own
words.
The reason I have gone to IMBA and CTC, is you are too childish to bother with.
If you represent (officially or otherwise) a club that shouts on its
front page about being members of organisations that oppose such
thoughtless and socially irresponsible actions and attitudes, they need
to know. Do you think IMBA and CTC want to lend their support and
credence to such a group? I hope not.
Matt
By the way, do you want the spanking on your bottom or on your (limp) wrist?
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Author: 49er_Jerry
Date: 25/04/06 11:43
I've also informed the Peak National Park in the hope that they can and will take some action against you.
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Author: nbt
Date: 25/04/06 11:44
Thanks Simon. on Thursday I'm off to see the peak park rangers in
my role as local IMBA rep to discuss the future of MTBing in the peak
district
You've just made my job a whole lot easier
*end sarcasm*
and if it's true that bogtrotters are IMBA affiliated I will ask if we
can suspend that affiliation. We may agree on the underlying points
about access laws, but not about the way in which to change them.
there's doing it right and there's being a ****. Gues which way you;re
doing it?
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Author: Akhenaton
Date: 25/04/06 11:49
I think you'll find it means what I want it to mean...
Yes but you need to replace it with something valid, not hide behind a
veneer of activism when it clearly isn't. I've changed my mind, you
aren't an anarchist at all are you? you are just a selfish rider who
adicates any responsibility towards the land, other trail users and the
mountain bike community by claiming to aspire to higher values. Why
sign up to IMBA and CTC if you clearly don't respect their codes of
conduct?
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Author: mistertom
Date: 25/04/06 11:49
Just like to point out that I didn't mean organise a big footpath ride with a load of publicity!
I think this has all got a bit silly. I don't really think that the
Peak NPA need take action against anybody, although I do agree that the
bogtrotters need to have a serious look at what they're doing (as do
IMBA UK!).
Simon, stop coming up with cr*p arguments about rights, anarchy etc etc etc
The law might be wrong, but so are you.
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Author: mistertom
Date: 25/04/06 11:51
Hi NBT - I'm curious. How do the park rangers and the park authority currently view mountain biking?
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Author: matt_outandabout
Date: 25/04/06 11:53
Well done mistertom - i appreciate you standing up and bieng counted, as well as admitting thier is a problem.
I dont think it is silly - i am a Peaks local, and have regular contact
with other trail users, some of which are not positive - behaviour like
this just re-enforces thier wrong attitudes and makes life harder for
IMBA and people as they go about negotiating a better future for
mountainbikeing in the Peaks and elsewhere.
Matt
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Author: rjw
Date: 25/04/06 11:58
I think you'll find it means what I want it to mean...
Why don't you refer to yourself as a **** then? You can still think it
means what you want it to mean, everyone else can be happy with it's
accuracy?
You do seem to be going out of your way to do as much as possible to
damage the acceptable face of mountain biking. Are you sure your not an
undercover rambler trying to destroy from within?
{Keep the personal insults out of this please or the thread will get pulled.
Mod 13}
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Author: brotherofsteve
Date: 25/04/06 11:59
Akhenaton - I suspect Simon's brand of anarchism is the type you'd
last have encountered in the playground - the sort 14-year-olds adopt
in that rather sad "I'm just mad, me!!!!" form of attention-seeking.
If Simon's selfish actions didn't have implications for the rest of us, I'd pat him on the head and laugh at him.
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Author: nbt
Date: 25/04/06 12:02
mistertom, not sonehting I can really say 100%, escpecially on a
public forum. mail me off line and I'll try to reply when I get chance.
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Author: weekendworrier
Date: 25/04/06 12:02
Do no other bogtrotters come on here?
were there any who didn't go on the ride who feel it was an inappropriate route?
did anyone go on it who now thinks it was a mistake?
My personal bview is that there are enough resaons for walkers and
landowners to get pee'd off with mtb riders without deliberatly
courting bad publicity by posting pictures/maps of dodgy routes.
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Author: SteveM
Date: 25/04/06 12:03
Chaps, as interesting as this thread is please keep the insults/swearing etc out of it.
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Author: mistertom
Date: 25/04/06 12:06
Matt - I live in Sheffield - see some earlier threads if you want
to see my views on the idiots who ride footpaths in the middle of the
Peak. In addition, my job is indirectly affected to where we can and
can't ride.
I doubt there's a single person on here who has never ridden a
footpath, including those arguing so strongly on this thread. I
certainly have. But I don't think many of those people do so in a huge
group (when I saw Simon's group out above the A57 I wondered what the
f***** was going on, there were so many of you), in such high profile
areas or in areas which are known to be sensitive(!)
Simon, please stop claiming that you're making a valid protest about
rights (as i said, drop that one, you're not kidding anyone). it's
insulting to people like the Kinder protesters and you were clearly out
for a club ride, not to make a poltical statement, so shut up. If you
want to make one, get the park involved, contact the media etc and
organise a big group ride (legally) to highlight the issue. That would
be a great thing to do.
You might fancy yourself as an anarchist. Fine, no problem. Problem with anarchists is that they tend to be mega anti-social...
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 12:06
I will ask if we can suspend that affiliation
sorry you feel that way Julian, we only reaffiliated a couple of weeks
ago - obviously the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing...
do you want the spanking on your bottom or on your (limp) wrist?
your choice sweetie, but you have to catch me first...
I've also informed the Peak National Park in the hope that they can and will take some action against you.
Yeah, a simple cluster bomb on my street would end the problem :-|
you are just a selfish rider who adicates any responsibility towards
the land, other trail users and the mountain bike community by claiming
to aspire to higher values.
bite me
I happen not to agree.
Why sign up to IMBA and CTC if you clearly don't respect their codes of conduct?
because they do good work, but the glacial pace of improvement does not fit my existential timeframe...
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Author: gingerflash
Date: 25/04/06 12:10
"Do no other bogtrotters come on here?"
I wonder if the rest are too embarassed to admit membership. I know of
a few who ride with them but never seem to admit it on here.
I rode with them once. 35 riders on footpaths in the Lakes. Never again.
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Author: Routemartin
Date: 25/04/06 12:12
So how much extra BW has been open up in the peaks?
Maybe the boggies went at the wronge time but I think it's the National Park and the National Trust that are selfish!
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Author: the-muffin-man
Date: 25/04/06 12:12
Hey Muffin-man - can i give you your wall back?
Are you popping down A&E to get some stitches in your forehead!
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Author: UncleNick
Date: 25/04/06 12:13
From the Bogtrotters site:
Reproduced from OS Landranger map 110 1:50000 scale by permission of
Ordnance Survey on behalf of The Controller of Her Majesty's Stationery
©Crown copyright 2005. All rights reserved. Licence number 100043574
Not very anarchist is it. Or do anarchists pick and choose the laws they want to break and those they want to obey?
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Author: Akhenaton
Date: 25/04/06 12:16
Wow simon great response. so in effect you use IMBA/CTC to gain
status for your club but choose which parts of the codes of conduct to
abide by. Thats a really intelligent and mature approach.
You may not agree with most of the opinions on this thread but you
would be an arrogant fool to ignore them and imagine that none of them
hold at least a sliver of truth.
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Author: brotherofsteve
Date: 25/04/06 12:17
Actually Simon, I'm intrigued... how exactly does being an
anarchist affect your day-to-day life? How do you decide which rules to
break and which not to? For example, when travelling down to the Peaks
on Sunday, did you ignore red lights, cruise down the hard shoulder
when the M6 got busy etc etc? Seriously, I'd like to know...
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Author: mistertom
Date: 25/04/06 12:19
Routemartin - yeah, it would be nice to have more bridleways opened up everywhere!
But things like this are probably don't excactly encourage them to open more up!
It would be interesting to hear NBT's views on this, although it's fair enough if he doesn't want to post them on here.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 12:19
Or do anarchists pick and choose the laws they want to break and those they want to obey?
just like everyone else ?
I wonder if the rest are too embarassed to admit membership.
easier to sit back and watch the fun :-) [or do some WORK]
35 riders on footpaths in the Lakes. Never again.
you never told me that - actually, there's hardly any need to use FPs in the Lakes, but that track is probably wrongly classified
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Author: Akhenaton
Date: 25/04/06 12:20
"So how much extra BW has been open up in the peaks?
Maybe the boggies went at the wronge time but I think it's the National Park and the National Trust that are selfish!"
agreed but taking shitloads of riders out on a weekend jaunt along a
bunch of footpaths does nothing for anyone, it simply re-enforces a
stereotype of selfish, ignorant mountain bikers and will make the
changes that we all want to see less likely not more likely.
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Author: MrNice
Date: 25/04/06 12:22
Bloody hell! This has all kicked off a bit since I saw it earlier.
FWIW I'm with mistertom etc as an occasional FP rider but only when
it's quiet and/or dark. I was surprised enough at taking a group over a
path I've always thought wasn't worth the grief but then I realised
they were there on a Sunday...
An anarchist yesterday
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 12:23
How do you decide which rules to break and which not to?
same way as everyone else
For example, when travelling down to the Peaks on Sunday, did you ignore red lights
I don't even have a car, so yes, I ignored them. It was mutual.
Anarchy is a fact. We pretend there is a rule of law when it suits us, but it's mostly a smokescreen.
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Author: gingerflash
Date: 25/04/06 12:23
"you never told me that"
What's the point? I know your attitude on the subject. That doesn't
seem likely to change. Yours is just not a group I want to ride with
again.
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Author: vyberman
Date: 25/04/06 12:24
LOL at the anarchist bit.
It cracks me up how many ppl describe themselves as anarchists but have no bloody idea what one actually is.
So many of them think its about thumbing thier noses at authority and
doing whatever the hell they please, and saying they dont care what
anyone else thinks.
When its actually more to do with the removal of central government and allowing comuinities to rule and police them selves.
For anarchy to work, the first thing you would have to accept is that EVERYBODY would have to care what each other thought.
The other thing you would have to accept is that everybody else would
be an anarchist. Which means that local folk could decide to knock you
off your bikes and beat you sensless. And you wouldnt be able to do
anything about it, cos as you say you are an anarchist, therefore
wouldnt recongnise the authority of the police.
I'll wager that you would be the first to call the police if someones law breaking affected you!
Your beliefs my ass!
Dont mistake being an anarchist for being a toss pot!
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Author: richpips
Date: 25/04/06 12:25
I'm always reading we need more bridleways.
Though I don't live in the Peak, I'm there most weekends, and would say I know quite a bit of it.
Unless I choose to, I could ride somewhere different legally on
bridleways in the Peak and not have to repeat a route for several
months I would have thought ?
It' hardly as if the only options for mountain biking are a loop round ladybower res. or the Sett valley trail.
There was a thread yesterday where a few said we had some of the best mountain biking in the world.
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Author: Routemartin
Date: 25/04/06 12:25
Just a bit on the pennine bridleway!
Stanage Edge was f**ked up by climbers and walkers years ago. Jewel in the Crown lol!
The only think I can see wronge is the time and posting the pics on here.
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Author: mistertom
Date: 25/04/06 12:27
I wouldn't say I was an 'occasional footpath rider' any more than
anyone else on here. I certainly stick to bridleways around Sheffield.
I've ridden footpaths where I used to live in Hertfordshire (not high
profile, not sensitive, upset one walker (well, only one has told me
so) in about six years and nobody seems to mind) but have only done so
three or four times in seven years of Peak riding (twice because I
didn't realise I was on a footpath until later!)
In some places, footpath riding is, in my opinion, a grey area – it
doesn't seem to be a real issue. In the national parks, it's black and
white - don't do it.
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Author: mistertom
Date: 25/04/06 12:29
Stanage hasn't been f*cked by climbers. They tend to be far more
respectful towards the environment, other people and careful about the
image they portray than mountain bikers.
Although mountain bikers are friendlier :)
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Author: lowrider
Date: 25/04/06 12:33
Ive been following this thread with great interest as the footpath
that bogtrotters used is one ive had my eye on to try out (obviously at
a quiet time and not with a platoon of riders in tow). i think simon is
right, the path probably did used to be a bridleway, lets hope it gets
reclassified soon. i had no idea that it was such a popular track with
so much controversy surrounding it, i wouldnt have considered it id i
had known. its a real shame that the bogtrotters have done what they
did and that simon chooses to defend their actions with such poor
argument and infantile 'nyah nyah' responses (though he is not the only
one).
the general consensus seems to be that cheeky trails are not a bad
thing, but should be carefully considered and if possible checked out
with locals beforehand. i agree with this. sorry to not be saying
anything new, just wanted to comment!
just a thought, how many bikers would be prepared to join some legal
form of protest/ action group to take these issues to the correct
authorities if all they had to do was show up rather than organise
something? i suspect that many bikers (like myself) feel strongly about
these issues but dont have the time to committ to action as what little
time they have is for riding!
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Author: Routemartin
Date: 25/04/06 12:33
Every time I visit the edge I return with a a minimum of 1 bag full of litter dropped by both climbers and walkers.
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Author: mistertom
Date: 25/04/06 12:40
Fair enough. I just tend to find them more environmentally aware and concerned than bikers. (Not knocking anybody on here!)
I've found tubes, ripped shorts, energy gel wrappers, pumps, broken
lights and so forth from bikers. (Admittedly not at the same time.)
Equally, I've found plastic bags, finger tape, fag butts, bits of tat and food wrappers at stanage.
Anyway, back to the main point. It's more fun!
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Author: geda
Date: 25/04/06 12:49
So whats the worse/stupidest thing they did then?
1. Riding on a footpath.
2. Doing it on a Sunday.
3. Doing it such an uncheeky way.
4. Going in such a large group.
5. Claiming to be an anarchist.
6. Taking pictures and doing a map.
7. Posting pictures of Denise's bum.
I have certainly done 1 and 2 and have certainly never done 7!
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Author: a_noodler
Date: 25/04/06 12:52
"For anarchy to work, the first thing you would have to accept is that EVERYBODY would have to care what each other thought"
..and to find out what everybody thought would involve discussion
groups which are meetings which are organised and would eventually
become commitees representing the 'anarchists' which, as the
'everybody' grew in size, would become government, etc, etc.. bunch of
arse really
If you wanna be an true anarchist go buy yourself an island simon.. your arguments are empty..
: A
ps and yeah I break laws, like speeding on clear motorways, but only
when I know, as far as I can, that my actions won't affect others
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 13:03
So Simon did you enjoy the beast?
yes, in a terrified kind of way :-)
as far as I can, that my actions won't affect others
To the best of my knowledge MY actions didn't affect anyone else. I'm
always unfailingly polite to other trail users. I don't consider myself
responsible for the actions of a lot of interfering busybodies
If you wanna be an true anarchist go buy yourself an island simon.. your arguments are empty..
thankfully I disagree (and wouldn't that be steal my own island ?)
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Author: ol_smokey
Date: 25/04/06 13:05
/poking head up from behind parapet/
I'm a fellow Bogtrotter and have ridden in large groups on footpaths. I
also happen to be a Cycling Officer for a rural council and a Public
Rights of Way Officer.
I know from first hand experience how little resource is put into
improving things for MTB'ers by Highway Authorities - i.e. none at all.
We are expected to do it all for free and it not take up any of our
time either.
Even the Council's who have 'dedicated' officers for improving MTB
resources make pathetically slow progress and only seem to want to get
involved when the project is nearly finished and they can take some
kudos. (IMO).
Example: FC managed Forest potential project: Big meeting 18 months ago
with all interested parties and landowners. Outcome of meeting:
Everybody for it, no major obstacles except funding. Has anyone tracked
down a grant, done a feasibility study. Of course not, and they're
never likely to either. There is so much apathy in this sport from
Authorities and riders alike it is no surprise that there are no new
Bridleways being created or re-classified from footpaths. For God's
sake nobody but the Walkers ever report obstructions on Bridleways. In
4 years of ROW work I have never had a phone call or an e-mail from an
MTB'er saying 'can you sort such and such a bridleway out.'
Therefore I will ride on footpaths with who I like & when I like.
If I went through the proper channels I'd be dead before anything
happened. I will leave a FP when a landowner asks me to and not before.
Hell meeting with the landowner in this situation is the only chance I
might have of a: Finding out who they are and b: Having a conversation
with them about giving access to MTB's.
\Ducks back down behing parapet.\
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Author: marty
Date: 25/04/06 13:09
I doubt there's a single person on here who has never ridden a footpath
waves!
2.
4.
5.
6. (but more the map)
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Author: weekendworrier
Date: 25/04/06 13:09
"I'm always unfailingly polite to other trail users"
perhaps you could adopt a similar approach to your contributions to the forum?
ol_smokey how would you react, in a professional capacity, to a
landowner complaining about mtb's using footpaths? Woudl you offer
advice on the introduction of styles etc to prevent access or just say
'tough - give them access'?
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Author: nbt
Date: 25/04/06 13:12
ol_smokey , well done for standing up. I admire your honesty, and I
can agree with all the points you make. I to ride footpaths, I just try
to do it withing the bounds of reason. Taking a large group across
Stanage edge on a fine sunday is not withint the bounds of reason
though, no matter how you look at it
you;re right about MTBers in general though - whinge about trails being
in poor conditions or about trails being resurfaced, but rarely get off
their arses to do anything about it, they just exopect things to
magically happen
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Author: Ianmunro
Date: 25/04/06 13:24
Therefore I will ride on footpaths with who I like & when I
like. If I went through the proper channels I'd be dead before anything
happened. I will leave a FP when a landowner asks me to and not before.
Me too, I ride FP's on pretty much every ride I do. But I wouldn't choose to
a) To take a large group
b) To choose such a busy time and place to take such a large group.
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Author: ol_smokey
Date: 25/04/06 13:27
"ol_smokey how would you react, in a professional capacity, to a
landowner complaining about mtb's using footpaths? Woudl you offer
advice on the introduction of styles etc to prevent access or just say
'tough - give them access'?"
First of all I'd find out why the L/O was complaining. Is it Erosion,
stock, wildlife/habitat, noise or just because it's a footpath. Once
I'd got the answer to that there's hundred's of potential solutions. (I
would also have to advise him about civil trespass).
"ol smokey - i understand your views but i think you are missing the point."
From your earlier post: "agreed but taking shitloads of riders out on a
weekend jaunt along a bunch of footpaths does nothing for anyone, it
simply re-enforces a stereotype of selfish, ignorant mountain bikers
and will make the changes that we all want to see less likely not more
likely."
Why do we care about our stereotype being so bad, what about the Nat.
Parks image, the landowner's image. People can sterotype me all they
like, stereotypes are nearly always wrong when applied to an
individual. (BTW I don't consider myself an anarchist). I suspect that
MTB'ers are probably one of the most well behaved and least damaging of
all the user groups out there. Why don't the horseriders have a complex
about the hoof marks they leave? Why aren't walkers feeling guilty
about all of the improvement works that had to be carried out on the
Pennine Way 'cos they bloody wrecked it?
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Author: ol_smokey
Date: 25/04/06 13:31
"Me too, I ride FP's on pretty much every ride I do. But I wouldn't choose to
a) To take a large group
b) To choose such a busy time and place to take such a large group."
They were a group of individuals and should be responsible for their
own actions so why should all of the Bogtrotters be held to account?
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Author: richpips
Date: 25/04/06 13:35
They were a group of individuals and should be responsible for their own actions...
I reckon most people on your (boggys) guided rides wouldn't have a clue that they were on a footpath.
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Author: MrsFlash
Date: 25/04/06 13:36
"They were a group of individuals and should be responsible for their own actions"
if you're on a group ride you may not know that part of the ride is on
footpaths. I didn't know on the Boggies ride I went on, untill after
we'd finished the footpath section. So I don't think I should have been
held to account on that occasion, but I should be if I go on another as
I know what to expect.
However,now that I know most Boggies rides use footpaths in NPs, I
won't go on another one. I'm fine with footpaths on a night ride in
less sensitive areas, but footpaths in NPs in a big group crosses my
line of acceptability.
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Author: UncleNick
Date: 25/04/06 13:37
To the best of my knowledge MY actions didn't affect anyone else.
Not directly maybe, but they will have if the Park Authorities look at
us as a bunch of folk who can't handle the responsibilities we've
already got, and then decide to take away even more of our rights.
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Author: Ianmunro
Date: 25/04/06 13:37
They were a group of individuals and should be responsible for
their own actions so why should all of the Bogtrotters be held to
account?
Because they're representing them I would imagine?
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Author: UncleNick
Date: 25/04/06 13:44
[off topic]
ol_smokey and his council department are the ones responsible for
erecting the 'No Cycling' signs on the cheeky footpaths where I learnt
to ride off-road, and which had been used by motorcyclists for years
before that.
I think I still have one in a drawer somewhere...
I don't ring him and his ilk asking for trails to be improved not
because I can't be bothered, but because I like them as they are, not
as just another extension to the highway network. Their so-called
improvements to the trails have involved dropping tons of gravel and
stone onto the paths sanitising them into things suitable for a decent
4x4.
Though of course taking the fun out of trails might just be their way
of making the cheek so bland that you just can't be bothered riding it
anymore.
[/off topic]
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Author: ol_smokey
Date: 25/04/06 13:51
"ol_smokey and his council department are the ones responsible for
erecting the 'No Cycling' signs on the cheeky footpaths where I learnt
to ride off-road, and which had been used by motorcyclists for years
before that."
Unlikely, unless you learnt to ride after 1st August 2004. My council
has only been looking after ROW in our district since then. At present
we only look after certain Parishes in the district, are you sure it's
in one of them?
If not you might want to direct your criticism at a certail other Local Authority.
"I don't ring him and his ilk asking for trails to be improved not
because I can't be bothered, but because I like them as they are, not
as just another extension to the highway network. Their so-called
improvements to the trails have involved dropping tons of gravel and
stone onto the paths sanitising them into things suitable for a decent
4x4."
You might find me taking a different approach as I too hate sanitisation of decent trails.
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Author: aurora
Date: 25/04/06 13:52
"They were a group of individuals and should be responsible for
their own actions so why should all of the Bogtrotters be held to
account?
Because they're representing them I would imagine?"
Indeed, it was a Bogtrotters organized ride it's on the Bogtrotters
website, this thread mentions the Bogtrotters so whatever way you look
at it the Bogtrotters are associated by probably all on this forum as a
"club" that advocates mass rides on footpaths in sensitive areas at
inappropriate times and can see no wrong in doing this, infact they (or
at least SFB) appear to revel in this aspect of their rides. They also
it would appear want all the cachet of being associated with the CTC
and IMBA without ahearing to the principles/rules of said
organizations...
prove any of that is incorrect?
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 13:52
"I'm always unfailingly polite to other trail users"
perhaps you could adopt a similar approach to your contributions to the forum?
I've checked, and I have been polite in this thread, unlike some of the other posters :-(
I'm usually only rude to people I know, and they expect it
across a very sensative area on a weekend morning when loads of
walkers are out, smacks to me of a lack of responsibility which isn't
anarchistic at all, its just thoughtless and selfish.
The old Common Law had it that a person was allowed to go where they
wished in the land (as in Scotland & Europe). It's alleged that
various restrictions have been imposed latterly, but I believe such law
as there is to be vague and unenforceable. To my mind a person with a
pedal powered bicycle has a similar status (and scope for destruction)
to someone with a pram or a walking stick. I fail to see why taking my
bike with me suddenly renders me 'selfish'
I reckon most people on your (boggys) guided rides wouldn't have a clue that they were on a footpath.
We're not as stupid as we look :-)
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Author: mistertom
Date: 25/04/06 13:57
I fail to see why taking my bike with me suddenly renders me 'selfish'
Because not everybody (ie people who make decisions, people who
influence decisions, walkers etc – I'm not talking about people on
here) don't share your view. That means that when they come to make a
decision about increasing rights of way for riders (however slow,
indecisive they may be) they might recall your actions and make a
decision which has negative repercussions for all riders. That's (one reason) why it's selfish
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 14:01
and then decide to take away even more of our rights.
I doubt they could, for all I know they may actually be mythical. They
certainly could not afford to patrol the fells in the hope of deterring
us
They also it would appear want all the cachet of being associated
with the CTC and IMBA without ahearing to the principles/rules of said
organizations...
I'm happy to support the CTC and IMBA, but if they consider us to be hopeless renegades I won't mind if they kick us out
infact they (or at least SFB) appear to revel in this aspect of their rides
I just ride and take photos. I certainly enjoy the hullabaloo I
sometimes read about it on here, but I suspect it signifies naught.
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Author: Akhenaton
Date: 25/04/06 14:02
Simon, for god sake man i fecking agree with you on that! this
issue is NOT about the rights and wrongs of this country's access laws.
: )
its about you publising a really stupid ride and then failing to show
any remorse or even a convincing counter argument to the critism your
actions provoked.
where's that wall gone?
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Author: a_noodler
Date: 25/04/06 14:04
To the best of my knowledge MY actions didn't affect anyone else.
then you've got fingers in yer ears and you're going 'la la la..'
: A
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Author: MrsFlash
Date: 25/04/06 14:05
Why? I'm just stating my opinion. Like I said, I've no problem
riding footpaths in other areas, we do it on night rides. But I think
in a a big group on a Sunday in the middle of a National Park is just
stupid.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 14:09
That means that when they come to make a decision about
increasing rights of way for riders (however slow, indecisive they may
be) they might recall your actions and make a decision which has
negative repercussions for all riders. That's (one reason) why it's
selfish
sounds a bit hypothetical to me: "if; might; may"
I understand the theory, I just don't believe it
or even a convincing counter argument
Where does it say I have to make an argument ? You lot seem to do it
for me :-) All I think I'm saying is: "here is our country, innit
lovely ?"
argue with that :-)
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Author: jsp
Date: 25/04/06 14:11
Simon, do you realise your keeping all these nice people from
enquiring what tyres they should use when they actually get out and
ride ;-0
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Author: Akhenaton
Date: 25/04/06 14:21
hey Simon, if you wanted out of this thread then you missed the
last call. You have made the argument by claiming to be an anarchist
and dismissing all of the opinions voiced on here which didn't really
work did it? If you want to now change your approach and pretend that
you don't need to justify yourself or your actions then thats fine, why
didn't you say that at the beginning? Of course then you won't be able
to respond to critisism and the like but if you don't care then it
won't matter.
either way, your attitude has p*ssed enough people off to contact the
national parks, IMBA and CTC so all in all either a) well done, you
must be proud b) oops, you got that one wrapped round your b0llocks
didn't you.
either way I really hope your actions don't have a negative effect on mtbing in the peaks or anywhere else for that matter.
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Author: nbt
Date: 25/04/06 14:23
> we only reaffiliated a couple of weeks ago - obviously the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing
Sorry missed that one. I don;t think thats the case - I'm just a
member. I just don't want other members trashing the hard work I'm
putting in on behalf of mountain bikers by doing stuff like this and
saying "**** you, I'm in IMBA". not a good image.
as has been said many times before up there, riding footpaths etc is
not bad in itslef. taking large groups on footpaths in sensitive areas
at the weekend is a less-than-good-idea, and quite how you fail to
realise that is somewhat beyond me.
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Author: filoconnor
Date: 25/04/06 14:25
Having finally reached the end of this thread, like a lamb to the slaughter I stand up and say, “I am a Bogtrotter”.
So if I’ve got this right, you all think it is OK to ride any path you like, so long as you don’t get caught?
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Author: Bazzer
Date: 25/04/06 14:26
"and then decide to take away even more of our rights."
"I doubt they could, for all I know they may actually be mythical. They
certainly could not afford to patrol the fells in the hope of deterring
us"
So, SFB would be happy if the MX'ers and 4x4 communities took the same attitude and just rode/drove where the fook they like ?
In our overcrowded land the countryside is a finite resource which could not withstand that onslaught.
I agree with most of what has been said here. Unfortunately, these
selfish actions will tar us all with the same brush in the eyes of
those who ultimately are able to grant or deny access to the
countryside.
When decisions are made, the walking community have a much louder voice than mtb'ers.
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Author: Akhenaton
Date: 25/04/06 14:26
<So if I’ve got this right, you all think it is OK to ride any path you like, so long as you don’t get caught?>
nope, you'd best reread the thread, all of it this time : )
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Author: UncleNick
Date: 25/04/06 14:27
They certainly could not afford to patrol the fells in the hope of deterring us
They could just look at your calendar to decide when to deploy their resources.
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Author: weekendworrier
Date: 25/04/06 14:30
"Having finally reached the end of this thread...you all think it
is OK to ride any path you like, so long as you don’t get caught?"
did you actually read any of the posts between the first and last?
Summary;
No one objects to cheeky trails.
People do object to riding footpaths in a National Park in a large group when there are numerous other (legitimate) users about.
This is not due to any other concern than that it may lead to further
restirctions on mtb access in general and other Park users of Mtbers.
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Author: aurora
Date: 25/04/06 14:31
"So if I’ve got this right, you all think it is OK to ride any path you like, so long as you don’t get caught?"
or more correctly, if you consider where and when you are going to use a footpath.
ie not when it's likely to be full of walkers and maybe not at all in
especially sensitive areas. Of course it also goes without saying that
if you are being cheeky, don't take twenty odd people with you and
don't publicise it before or after in such a look at me way!
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Author: aurora
Date: 25/04/06 14:34
"Sensitive Footpaths:-
Isn't conservation just buggering about with nature?"
I don't believe that in this context Sensitive is refering to conservations but to local access politics...
as can be gleaned from reading the thread, there would appear to be
people trying to affect/effect change in the area through the "correct"
channels, their efforts could end up being ruined thanks to sfb and the
bogcockers riding whereever the hell they want at peak (no pun
intended) times...
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Author: mistertom
Date: 25/04/06 14:36
Wrong, weekendworrier. People do object to cheeky trails. I object
to them being ridden in the middle of national parks. Yes, time,
location, group size etc are important, but some footpaths should NOT
be ridden, regardless of these factors. The top of stanage is one of
them.
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Author: weekendworrier
Date: 25/04/06 14:46
fair enough mistertom, there may be some areas where the
environmental impact of even a single bicycle is too great to be
considered (but foot traffic is acceptable?)
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Author: nbt
Date: 25/04/06 14:49
weekendworrier, that's a whole other issue. Studies (reader et al)
have shown that the impact of bikes is not significantly more than that
of walkers - however "enviromnental" can also mean the impact on other
trail users and since stanage is such a honeypot area with well
documented conflict between different user groups, we do not want to be
fanning the flames like this :-S
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Author: mistertom
Date: 25/04/06 14:50
I'm referring more to the impact riding on certain footpaths has on
the impression others have of mountain biking, rather than
environmental concerns.
Other than that, I would say that sheer volume of walkers often creates
more erosion than bikes, that I get really p*ssed off by the muddy hell
holes created by horses and that footpaths in other less sensitive
(talking access etc, not environment, although that needs to be taken
into account) areas are, to an extent, fair game...
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Author: weekendworrier
Date: 25/04/06 14:52
nbt - that's the point I was trying to make.
it's not the affect on the actual landscape that's the issue it's how other users of the area perceive it.
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Author: matt_outandabout
Date: 25/04/06 14:56
unfortunately weekendwarrior, yes...
But we have people like IMBA (and nbt) and CTC and ol_smokey working on
our behalf, to negotiate fair comprimises on access over such issues.
It is our responsibility to do our best by not upsetting other trail
users by our irresponsible behaviour, at peak times on contencious
trails, even if they are on dodgy ground.*
(*puns intended!)
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Author: MrsFlash
Date: 25/04/06 14:57
What on earth have I said that's different to what pretty much everyone else has said?
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Author: marty
Date: 25/04/06 14:59
SFB - guessing you don't really know about Scottish access legislation (other than it's generally great!).
Quick summary of the responsibilities of recreation users for you (from the SOAC website):
The outdoors is where land managers make a living. It is the home of
Scotland’s diverse wildlife and is enjoyed by the many people who live
there and visit it. You can exercise access rights responsibly if you:
1. Take responsibility for your own actions;
2. Respect people’s privacy and peace of mind. When close to a house or
garden, keep a sensible distance from the house, use a path or track if
there is one, and take extra care at night;
3. Help land managers and others to work safely and effectively . Do
not hinder land management operations and follow advice from land
managers. Respect requests for reasonable limitations on when and where
you can go;
4. Care for your environment. Do not disturb wildlife, leave the
environment as you find it and follow a path or track if there is one;
5. Keep your dog under proper control. Do not take it through fields of calves and lambs, and dispose of dog dirt;
6. Take extra care if you are organising an event or running a business and ask the land owner’s advice.
posts on Bogtrotters rides remind me:
a) why i ride offroad in big groups extremely rarely
b) why i have only ridden offroad in England and Wales (outside races) once.
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Author: ben_s
Date: 25/04/06 14:59
Hardly hypocrisy.
The odd night time cheecky trail is far removed from trapsing across a
FP in a national park in broad daylight on a spring Sunday.
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Author: filoconnor
Date: 25/04/06 15:06
You're all arguing the shades of grey, are hypocritical (apart from
Simon who hasn’t moved from his trench), and should therefore be forced
to ride road bikes instead eh?
See you Wednesday Simon?
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Author: Akhenaton
Date: 25/04/06 15:08
obviously a bumchum of barnes who's recruited him onto the thread, sfb the master of puppets! : )
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Author: sadexpunk
Date: 25/04/06 15:10
just off at a tangent slightly, which bit is the offending footpath?
im looking at simons map, and it looks like the big stanage edge track
on his map is long broken dashes like a bridleway, yet on my memory map
it looks like short broken dashes of a footpath.
is it this bit, or the bit after the A57 to cutthroat bridge thats the footpath? or all of it?
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Author: brotherofsteve
Date: 25/04/06 15:13
Filo, although I suspect from the, er, grammatical form of your
contribution this may turn out to be a bit too much to ask, can you
please tell us in what way we're being hypocritical?
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Author: filoconnor
Date: 25/04/06 15:22
brotherofsteve - which school did you went to?
I don't think this discussion could stand a 5th full circle, do you?
Ha ha ha, you're all so serious. Mmmm I like it when you’re angry, chase me chase me…
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Author: ChrisHeath
Date: 25/04/06 15:29
I don't think we can take anything filoconnor says seriously as he wears tights under his shorts...
As opposed to tight shorts?
:o)
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Author: funkynick
Date: 25/04/06 15:30
sadexpunk... the offending path is the one that runs along the very top of Stanage Edge...
On the 1:25k maps is marked by a black dotted line.. which signifies a path, but not necessarily a right of way..
On the 1:50k maps it is marked by a black dashed line, which once again signifies a path, but not necessarily a right of way..
They both mean the same, it's just a different mark-up for the different scales of maps.. :o)
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Author: filoconnor
Date: 25/04/06 15:32
Ah finally, some humour!! It beats all this name calling right?
Simon, don’t go there mate re: shorts. I didn’t know (until I met you) that men could sport a camel toe!
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Author: Van-Halen
Date: 25/04/06 15:33
saying `you ride cheeky trails - thats wrong, you`ve been bad`
then saying
`i dont mind riding cheeky trails near me`
is not hypocrasy(sp?) then?
not a dig just an observation mrs f. ;-)
me? i`m not commenting on the whole deal as i`m too naughty...
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Author: MrsFlash
Date: 25/04/06 15:36
No, as I said, I don't ride them in national parks, there is a
difference. Round my way there are not likely to be any walkers at all,
certainly not a huge amount of walkers because it's a weekend in full
daylight, and not the middle of february at 10pm.
As I said, there's a time and a place and a national park on a weekend with a big group is not it.
which is exactly the same as what pretty much everyone else has said,
so I still don't get why it's me that's getting all the digs.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 15:40
obviously a bumchum of barnes who's recruited him onto the thread, sfb the master of puppets! : )
I have drawn the thread to the attention of the membership, but if you think I could get them to do anything you're kiddding yourself :-(
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Author: Akhenaton
Date: 25/04/06 15:45
no surprise then that bogtrotters appear 'as if by magic' and the
thread descends into slagging people off until it is closed and maybe
pulled from the forum. Suit you nicely that would : )
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Author: sadexpunk
Date: 25/04/06 15:46
the offending path is the one that runs along the very top of Stanage Edge...
On the 1:25k maps is marked by a black dotted line.. which signifies a path, but not necessarily a right of way..
On the 1:50k maps it is marked by a black dashed line, which once again signifies a path, but not necessarily a right of way..
They both mean the same, it's just a different mark-up for the different scales of maps.. :o)
thanks. ill have to brush up on my OS :-)
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Author: ZoneOneRanger
Date: 25/04/06 15:46
Hat off to Simon for riding the wave of sanctimony that is this
thread. I'd rather see a bunch of experienced MTBers on a Peak footbath
than 1 crisp packet chucker at Coed y Brenin.
Walkers won't accept MTBers on footpaths until they see that they can
actually ride them with little or no impact and a cheery wave.
You do what you want to mate, not what a bunch of over 50, IT centric, paunchtastic midday warriers tell you.
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Author: MrsFlash
Date: 25/04/06 15:48
filoconnor, no I wear my shorts under my tights. Perhaps I should try it the other way round, do you recommend it?
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 15:53
no surprise then that bogtrotters appear 'as if by magic' and
the thread descends into slagging people off until it is closed and
maybe pulled from the forum. Suit you nicely that would : )
I would hate the thread to be pulled, and the only person I've slagged
off is phil, another club member, over a completely different matter.
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Author: ol_smokey
Date: 25/04/06 15:54
Is anybody going to check with Derbyshire County Council as to how this 'Right of Way' is recorded on the Definitive Map?
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Author: mistertom
Date: 25/04/06 15:55
Well said zoneoneranger. As I commented earlier, I forgot that we
can't possibly be seen to state any opinion that isn't left wing, cool,
liberal, anti-PC etc etc etc on here.
Happy to be sanctimonious.
Tom
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Author: ZoneOneRanger
Date: 25/04/06 15:56
Is anybody going to check with Derbyshire County Council as to how this 'Right of Way' is recorded on the Definitive Map?
No, we're all too busy reporting Simon to the United Nations Security Council.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 15:58
Hat off to Simon for riding the wave of sanctimony
wrong. 'sanctimony' implies insincerity. AFAIK, most of the posters
believe what they say for reasons that make sense to them, but not me.
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Author: nbt
Date: 25/04/06 16:02
>Is anybody going to check with Derbyshire County Council as to how this 'Right of Way' is recorded on the Definitive Map?
I'll ask on thursday but I can tell you now it's not a bridleway and
given the history of user group conflict in the area and popularity
with walkers and climbers it is unlikely ever to become so.
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Author: MrsFlash
Date: 25/04/06 16:04
Oh and when I said sensitive areas I meant it in the sense that Aurora said, not in the erosion sense.
But I've lost track of whether that makes me more or less of a
hypocrite, and what difference my tight/shorts layering makes to the
issue. Although thankfully I think tights season may be over so that
spares me having to think about it for any great lenght of time.
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Author: mtbfix
Date: 25/04/06 16:12
For the sake of adding my opinion. I used to ride footpaths on the
basis of if you stretch the law they may change it for the better but
the amount of hassle it was causing in my local woods was not worth the
bother. The landowner was about to be involved and so I did the honest
thing.
To suggest that a MTB ban is unenforceable is a laugh. Top 15mph on Mt
Tam and if they see you they take your bike. That would spoil your
Sunday every time.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 16:19
so this is actually a story about wicked NIMBYs denying us our rights to use an ancient packhorse trail ??
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Author: ol_smokey
Date: 25/04/06 16:23
Someone give me the OSGR's for the start and finish of the path in question and I'll phone DCC myself.
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Author: UncleNick
Date: 25/04/06 16:30
so this is actually a story about wicked NIMBYs denying us our rights to use an ancient packhorse trail ??
For the record I see no problem with poaching cheek, done with sensitivity. Those rules Dave posted are a damn good start.
There are some on this thread who are lambasting simon but at the same
time would probably (given the nature of their comments) happily ban
horses from these old packhorse trails. Now that really is hypocrisy.
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Author: funkynick
Date: 25/04/06 16:32
It starts at SK 230 878
and finishes at approx SK 237 846 where it joins the Long Causeway..
It is the marked path that runs along the top of Stanage Edge, and not the right of way that runs along the bottom..
Oh, and am not sure how much joy you will have from DCC, as the path
crosses into and out of Yourkshire county council territory.. with the
top of Stanage being the approximate boundary.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 16:35
if they see you they take your bike
who ARE these 'they' ? The only ranger I've ever seen in 10 years was by appointment on a trail day...
Is Mt.Tam in the UK ?
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Author: 49er_Jerry
Date: 25/04/06 16:42
For those interested in the real issues behind the 'debate' in this
thread, here is a copy of my mail to the National Park, together with
the reply.
Message Type: Question
Comments: I am a keen and committed Mountain Bike Rider, who enjoys
riding in the Park. I am resident in Sheffield and have a great deal of
respect for the work of the Park. Like many mountain bikers, I would
like more access to the areas of the Park which currently are foot only
areas, but as a rule, I keep to the legal ROW. The following post
appeared on one of the national MTB forums this morning which insensed
me.
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/read.php?f=2&i=2339688&t=2339688
A posting / action if possible against such blatent abuse of ROW may
make a point. I do not want MTBing in the Park to be given a bad
(worse) name, and am concered that if unchalleged this type of flagrent
abuse of the Park by a few mindless individuals, the majority will be
punished. My username on the forum is 49er_Jerry. I have riden the
trail in the knowledge that it is a footpath, but I would like to think
much more responsably.
Jerry
And the reply
Jerry
I've had a look at the web-site and find that you're already addressing
the issue in a more robust way than I would dare to do. We obviously
appreciate the efforts of peer groups to influence the behaviour of
colleagues in terms of respecting the National Park, and I for one
regard that as much more effective than the Authority preaching from on
high as to what people should or shouldn't do. I don't feel that
entering the discussion will help - they already know they're breaking
the law and don't care.
'Your final point is the most interesting one, regarding the image that
MTBers have, and the effects that riding across open moorland has on
this. When I speak to landowners, seeking additional bridleway links,
or even dedicated MTB routes in the National Park, the impression I get
from them is not good - ie 'they go where they like anyway....this will
open the gate to more trespassing' etc etc...I'm sure you get the
picture. It is frustrating, when you know most bikers respect the
National Park and the ROW network, to have a few ignorant pillocks
undermine the opportunity to improve the situation for everybody who
rides, including horse riders.'
Anyway, we appreciate your efforts to engender respect for others and
the NP and wish you luck. I'm meeting the IMBA bloke from Stockport
next week (Julian Winstanley) - I'll raise with him the effects that
trespassing has on our prospects for improving the network - see what
he has to say.
Many thanks
Mike Rhodes
Access and Rights of Way Manager
Please take note SFB et al.
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Author: jsp
Date: 25/04/06 16:50
49er_jerry......Give yourself a Blue Peter Badge, i'll never ride a FP again.
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Author: monkfish
Date: 25/04/06 16:52
Quote:
I have riden the trail in the knowledge that it is a footpath, but I would like to think much more responsably.
I can't really see that the moral high ground can be taken here when youv'e admitted this.
The landowners comments that they go where they please could be down to
the evidence of tyre marks from "covert" use of the cheeky trail rather
than the blatant use we are seeing here.
I don't see any grey
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Author: gtkid
Date: 25/04/06 16:55
how do I get the tea that I've just sprayed over my flat screen monitor off! pmsl
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 16:57
49er_Jerry thanks for drawing my photos to the attention of the National Park Authority and saving me the trouble...
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Author: Akhenaton
Date: 25/04/06 16:57
no simon, you are a big dangerous anarchist!
please save us from ourselves by always being right! : )
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 17:02
Anarchist bomb throwing:
it seems to me that governments (the source of law) are best at delivering industrial scale bombing
I confine myself to non-violent direct action
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Author: moomooland
Date: 25/04/06 17:05
What a bunch of sanctimonious turds Matt and the rest of you are.
Oh I am telling on you, I am going to tell teacher. IanMunro, you
really are the lowest of them all, we had kids like you at school and
they really were tossers. Now I know what they turned into!
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 17:13
What a bunch of sanctimonious turds
I cannot agree. They mean well, it's just that they worship at the
altar of a false god that rewards the righteous. Not in this life IMO
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Author: Ianmunro
Date: 25/04/06 17:15
moomooland, we also had people like you.
Special ones who always took things at face value, and had to have even simple jokes explained to them :)
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Author: brotherofsteve
Date: 25/04/06 17:23
No Simon, I worship at the altar of a god who decreed that people
like you cross my path only rarely. And if I were you, I'd be
worshipping at that altar too ;-)
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 17:24
Special ones who always took things at face value
sadly I missed the point too, I didn't realise you saucy rascals were just sending me up. Phew, now my face is red :-|
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Author: richpips
Date: 25/04/06 17:29
What a bunch of sanctimonious turds Matt and the rest of you are.
Yeah, it's awful when someone stands up to be counted for what they believe, eh ?
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 17:32
it's awful when someone stands up to be counted for what they believe
it seems that rather depends on what that is :-(
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 17:37
When I first joined the Bog Trotters, there was a strict rule
(still in place) that we only ride recognised ROW for bikes. When I
questioned it, I was told the sky would fall in if we didn't follow the
rule. In the first bloom of New Labour, I hoped for relaxed
restrictions with the advent of 'Right to roam'. There were none, so I
arbitrarily decided that if the walkers had the open fells, we could
have the footpaths. The sky did not fall in, and indeed if Parliamant
were to remove all support for the sky tomorrow, it still woudn't fall in.
It's an imperfect world, and we're here only a short time. Make the most of it :-)
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Author: richpips
Date: 25/04/06 17:49
Stick to your guns Simon.
Maybe you'll become the Benny Rothman of the mountain biking world.
Somehow I doubt it though.
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Author: brotherofsteve
Date: 25/04/06 17:53
It certainly is an imperfect world Simon, and, sadly, it's being
made ever-more imperfect by the ill-judged, ill-timed and irresponsible
actions of people like you. Whether you like it or not, your actions DO
have an impact and WILL have an effect on others... does that not
strike a chord anywhere??
And I'm assuming the Bogrotters' "strict rules" don't apply on Sundays then?
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Author: Routemartin
Date: 25/04/06 18:11
BTW Simon excellent pics and that trail is a corker. (I wonder how many will try that one now?)
I've finished the my reccie of the Duke's land. (now which Duke was it Devonshire or Westminster?)
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Author: knottie8
Date: 25/04/06 18:59
hi simon just surfed in to say nice pics, as per usual. Cant
believe this thread ! How do you stay so calm and not fire up ? I wont
comment on the arguemnt .
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Author: Horse
Date: 25/04/06 19:11
Simon, I really can't be arsed reading 234 posts, but from what I've read the feelings are what I usually hassle you about.
Sensitive area (National Parks score a plus here).
Big Group.
Weekend.
Lots of publicity (biggest MB forum etc).
Good Phoographs.
******** attitude.
You see yourself as some freedom fighter, but you're not, you're a
cock, and those who ride with you are as guilty, maybe they are unaware
of where they are, but obviously a lot are very aware of where they are
and what they are doing. If you think you're above the law think again,
trail riders thought that and wait till the NERC Bill kicks in, it'll
catch a lot out. You show little respect for your environment, I think
you ride with very little respect, there are so many BWs to ride, you
haven't exhausted them all. Everyone rides a FP now and then, but
there's "cheeky" , "taking the piss" and blatant "pissing in someones
face" and you and you're club are the latter.
And if I see you out and about I'll tell you the same (obviously not whilst I'm wearing my politically correct costume).
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Author: southlakes
Date: 25/04/06 19:12
Nice photos simon, Would be interesting to know how many hits
Bogtrotters Website had today from this forum, what ever the rights and
wrongs of riding along Stanage Edge are! Simon done great job in
publicizing the Bogtrotters Mountain Bike Club. I know from past
experience, in posting the right photos on forums like this generates
over 100 hits in few hours, which may be turn into new members (that
£20 per member into Bogtrotter Bank account), a article on your club
more free publicity and more new members joining the Bogtrotters.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 19:25
How do you stay so calm and not fire up ?
I enjoy a lively discussion :-)
It's been suggested I'm saying "la, la, I'm not listening", but in fact
I read all the posts with interest (I may have missed a few in the
flood)
I think the suggestion that our behaviour on our bikes influences what
happens is at best an untried hypothesis. I suspect most people have
little idea of what mountain biking is about and base their opinions on
BMXers and pavement riders. I don't see any need to be a 'freedom
fighter' as we already have the freedom to ride pretty much where we
please, and that is unlikely to change in any substantive way,
regardless of legislation (if any)
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Author: richpips
Date: 25/04/06 19:32
Southlakes, I've looked at your website, can't say I'd dream of
joining, though you seem a nice bunch. I've met some of your members at
York on a couple of occasions.
Have you had any new members since you started lurking round here ?
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Author: Horse
Date: 25/04/06 19:35
> I think the suggestion that our behaviour on our bikes
> influences what happens is at best an untried hypothesis. I
> suspect most people have little idea of what mountain biking is
> about and base their opinions on BMXers and pavement riders. I
> don't see any need to be a 'freedom fighter' as we already have
> the freedom to ride pretty much where we please, and that is
> unlikely to change in any substantive way, regardless of
> legislation (if any)
>
>
And you think the House of Lords knows best? You only need a
pressure group with influence to pick up on this attitude and it'll get
very awkward. The Red Sock Brigade have far more influence and sympathy
in that house than IMBA or the CTC ever will.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 19:40
cheers southlakes, though as it happens, we're not
actively seeking to recruit members, but I never turn people away. The
current tally is 94, which I think is enough.
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Author: dobie
Date: 25/04/06 19:44
Always the same people in the Peaks are paranoid,like the illegal
signs that appear now and again stopping motobikes going up the roman
road.What about all that pollution from the cement works at Hope pump
out all day long.Worryed about a few tyre marks on a footpath where
there is rocks everywhere.crazy.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 19:54
You only need a pressure group with influence to pick up on this attitude and it'll get very awkward.
I'm flattered you think my meagre efforts might be so (counter) influential, but I'm more sceptical
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Author: Horse
Date: 25/04/06 19:57
No, don't forget I think you're a cock, but there's over 240 posts
on this thread, how many hits? 1500+?? You know all these people?
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 20:11
No, don't forget I think you're a cock
I knew that. AFAIK, you're a very nice man :-)
but there's over 240 posts on this thread, how many hits? 1500+?? You know all these people?
about 5 of them...
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Author: southlakes
Date: 25/04/06 20:19
richpips, the rsf had no new members off this forum yet! we had
alot of free publicity off this forum what more can you ask for! if you
look at South Lakes Group Website that great! if you not intrested in
joining you may tell someone who his that also even better! has you can
tell from my rely the rsf is always actively seeking new members and I
am looking forward to the flood of application form coming through my
letter box in the coming weeks.
If anybody wants to look at current copy of the "The Rough-Stuff
Journal" which bi-monthly please e-mail me your name address and post
you a copy with an application form.
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Author: Routemartin
Date: 25/04/06 20:41
The Red Sock Brigade have far more influence and sympathy in that house than IMBA or the CTC ever will.
However, they cause far more damage than the boggies ever will. Now if
the boggies when about dropping litter, I'd have a different opinion of
them. The majority of red socks don't have a clue about spreading their
inpact and the NP & NT are quiet happy to accomodated this. From
the boggies ride list it appears that their impact is spread far and
wide.
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Author: skinny_arms
Date: 25/04/06 20:53
Simon how would you feel if you'd been confronted with 15 MXers
coming the other way down your selfish little cheeky trail? Would you
salute them as fellow anarchists as they churned the trail into
porridge?
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 21:00
Simon how would you feel if you'd been confronted with 15 MXers
I object to the destruction caused by powered off road vehicles, but apparently not enough to do anything about it
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Author: marty
Date: 25/04/06 21:56
you scots must be laughing your socks off :~)
not really, key issue here is the complete disregard of responsible use
of the countryside, rather than the rights and wrongs of riding on
footpaths in E&W. but that kind of got lost in all the guff.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 22:15
key issue here is the complete disregard of responsible use of the countryside
as you can see from the pics, we had minimal impact on the ground, and
I can affirm (with one exception) that our interaction with the walkers
was amicable. To my mind it's irresponsible to classify an ancient
packhorse trail as 'walkers only'...
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Author: StuN
Date: 25/04/06 22:16
Scotland has a right to RESPONSIBLE access.
We have loads of stuff to ride and nowhere is permanantly off limits,
but at certain times when it is reasonable for landowners to request
that people stay away or stay on certain routes it is expected that you
respect that.
One of my favorite descents (a quad track through heather) is out of
bounds at the moment as it's through a hillside with a lot of lambing
sheep on it, but eleven months of the year we have a trail that would
never be a right of way in Albion.
It's a two sided coin and I don't think scottish access laws would help cocks like Mr S.F. Barnes.
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Author: nbt
Date: 25/04/06 22:17
>I can affirm (with one exception) that our interaction with the walkers was amicable.
what, every single person wh say you? Even the ones who never spoke to
you and wnet away, mutterinf daily mail style under their breath about
the irresponsible mountain bikers, already composing a letter to be
mailed to "the authorities"?...
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Author: marty
Date: 25/04/06 22:28
as you can see from the pics
once again you miss the point. riding a honeyspot in primetime, then posting up here is not responsible access.
please stay south of the border.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 22:29
what, every single person who saw you?
well, obviously I cannot attest to their mental states. I'm also used
to being shouted at on BWs by irate walkers who object to us being
there too, and someone in this thread counted each of us 3 times over
to arrive at a figure of 'about 50'...
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Author: Sue_W
Date: 25/04/06 22:30
Having worked in an 'access provison' capacity in both Scotland and
Wales I would say that a mass ride on a route with high numbers of
walkers on it during a busy weekend would a) probably be considered
'not responsible' under the Land Reform Act, and therefore you would
not have a 'right' to access; and b) is obviously illegal under Welsh /
English legislation.
I personally consider the Scottish system of access to be far better
than the Welsh / English situation, because it is based on the notion
of personal responsiblity rather than a system of rights that originate
from when off-road routes were used for transportation rather than
recreation purposes. However, if mountain bikers are not prepared to
think through whether or not their route choice is responsible, then
the a system similar to the Land Reform Act would not work in Wales /
England.
With my 'work' hat on, I would be keen to see mountain bikers (or
through IMBA / CTC)start to make significant approaches to the relevant
national bodies to discuss how legislative change could be developed to
open up access opportunities for mtbers in England and Wales. Currently
the Welsh Canoe Association (and the British Canoe Union) have been
running an extremely high-profile campaign to increase access to rivers
and are calling for an adoption of a similar version of the Land Reform
Act. This has at least make the national agencies and politicians begin
to address the issue. Perhaps it is time for mountain bikers to start a
similar campaign?
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Author: moomooland
Date: 25/04/06 22:33
Listen to you all jumping on the band wagon. You are like a flock
of sheep criticising Simon because you think thats what you should do.
Get an opinion of your own.
If we wait for that pathetic bunch of jumped up ars£s in the IMBA to
improve access for us we will be in our graves before we see any change.
Ride where you like and f**k the redsocks.
You all sound like a bunch of wet nurses scared of your own shadows!
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Author: moomooland
Date: 25/04/06 22:37
Un-be-f**lievable.
I have never read such a sorrowful liturgy of self important cr&p.
And the comments from so called "access managers" just goes to
re-inforce the stagnant, putrid state of affairs we have landed
ourselves in.
Too many chiefs and not enough braves.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 22:46
If we wait for that pathetic bunch of jumped up ars£s in the IMBA
I think they're well meaning :-)
I struggle to understand the 'responsible' bit. I'm not clear how one
group of 16 is worse than 4 groups of 4, or 16 of one. Inevitably, the
bigger the total group, the more it gets spread out due to differing
abilities, and you can clearly see from my pictures that we only bunch
at rest stops and at the stile where we waited for the 30+ walkers
group to get clear.
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Author: ChrisA
Date: 25/04/06 22:47
I was going to keep out of this.
First and foremost, Simon, i don't know you, but i, to the vast past, disagree with your actions on that day.
I'm not going to sit here and say i've never riden and never will ride
footpaths becasue i will, but only at a time when its right to do so.
I've been riding for 15 years, during this time, i've also been all
over the world whitewater paddling. One of the main reasons i chose to
walk away from paddling in the UK is becasue we have less than 5%
access to inland waters in the uk. The access to say the least was
crap, i have constant diputes with fishermen, i have been pelted with
maggot bombs and all for the sake of enjoyment.
Bikes co-exist with walkers - in the vast part and in my experience on
a happy medium. We are in a good position to build on this, but we do
not need more people to fight against us than already do. I think this
is the point a lot of people on here are trying to make.
The time i get to spend in the peaks due to work is precious to me,
it'd be a sorry state to be ousted / forced away / or not have the
social interaction with walkers just becasue people give us all a bad
name and don;t use just a tiny bit of common sense now and again.
Its nothing new or anything that hasn;t already been said. It'd just be
a shame to see the sport go down the same route as paddling in the UK
has.
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Author: marty
Date: 25/04/06 23:00
I struggle to understand the 'responsible' bit.
where's that brick wall? can i have a shot.
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Author: brotherofsteve
Date: 25/04/06 23:37
Simon, you must be mightily encouraged by the, er, high calibre of support you've attracted here today ;-)
I'm sure I speak for the vast majority of posters in hoping that you
all (well, all three, four maybe?) join together to enjoy your biking
as a group, ensuring that - in the spirit of the thread as a whole -
impact is limited.
If, in the meantime, our paths should cross in the Peaks one day, be
very sure to make yourself known. I'll certainly be looking out for you.
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Author: toss
Date: 25/04/06 23:39
zzzzzzzzzz Na-night,,,,,,,,,,,, yawn......mmmmmmmmmmhhhhh.snorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 23:47
our paths should cross in the Peaks one day, be very sure to make yourself known
how will I recognise you to identify myself to you ? Will it be the full 30 minute argument ?
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Author: toss
Date: 25/04/06 23:53
Fippin eck Simon, get to bed - you must have had enough by now?? No
shame in it - always tomorrow. BTW, is this the longest thread ever?
New to this. ta, T
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Author: mingsta
Date: 25/04/06 23:53
SimonfBarnes, take up roadieing. You know you wanna its just a
matter of time before you do! And you can ride on any road with
impunity (apart from certain A Roads and motorways).
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 25/04/06 23:58
is this the longest thread ever?
nope, all time high to my knowledge is one about home made LED lights, 700 posts split between 2 topics
SimonfBarnes, take up roadieing
This will never happen. I want the roads to be dug up...
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Author: mudhound
Date: 26/04/06 00:56
Marty - I think there's now a queue at the wall :)
As there’s probably a footpath in front of the wall I trust you’ll all go in small groups and at night and then it’ll be fine!
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Author: NZCol
Date: 26/04/06 05:29
This is an interesting thread. We have a bit of a problem here in
NZ where mtb's are banned from national parks as they fall under the
catch all of 'wheeled vehicles'. I think prams do as well actually but
there you go..anyway
We have the Heaphy track which is in the N of the S Island and is a
cracking ride. Walkers on it are few and far between and because of its
geographic location its appeal will be limited. So in theory you should
not ride it (although there is a theory its a paper road and so this
may or may not supercede the nat parks ruling). So , DoC have a review
going on and people have sort of decided to start riding it again. And
its severely peeing DoC off because 1)It creates conflict as the
walkers don't expect bikes on it, 2) DoC keep seeing people on it and
get the barrage of complaints from walkers at huts. But you see, DoC
actually want it to be re-opened a la the Queen Charlotte Walkway so
you can ride it between certain times of the year and we can manage
everyones expectations. However, the more people flout the 'rules'
(although in tehory there is nothing they can do) the more they think
'well f u c k you then, why shoudl we fight for you if all we get is
arrogant behaviour like this ?'
So - while theres nothing to stop me riding it, I won't in the meantime
until its legal. If I die before its reclassified then I can live with
that.
Its about being respectful to other people, your peers, your sport and
to stupid decisions made by people who do not understand the
implications.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 26/04/06 12:08
Earlier I stated that the law on ROW was vague, and no one corrected me. I believe the situation is roughly this:
As a person, you may go where you wish, provided you have no intent to
commit criminal acts, and you do not use force (breaking locks, cutting
wire etc). You are specifically excluded from some places (like
motorways if not in a powered vehicle). So, it's not illegal to walk
into someone's house and sit on the sofa if they leave the door
unlocked, but you can't legally eat their food etc without permission,
as that would be theft. You are civilly liable to make amends for any
damage you cause. The owner can ask you to leave and use 'reasonable
force' to persuade you to do so.
ROW add to this by relieving you of responsibility for damage to the
path you cause when you use it, and giving the 'landowner' (or the
local authority) the responsibility for maintaining the path and
keeping it clear of obstructions. The crux of the problem for bike
riders is that it has been ruled in a court (case law) that a bicycle
is not a 'natural accompaniment' to a person (like a bag, a pram or a
stick), and this is the basis for excluding us from footpaths. We may
use bridleways, which are ROW for riders on horses. To my mind the
point is moot. A horse is self-powered, a bike is not. If a bike were
to be classed as an 'adult pram', we'd be entitled to take one with us
on a footpath. In any case, the absence of a right of WAY does not make
your presence illegal, it merely renders you liable to make restitution
for damage to the path, and to be asked to leave by the landowner (or
possibly their agent)
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Author: MikeD
Date: 26/04/06 12:23
You're right that, in general, it's not "illegal" to ride a bike on
a footpath - it's a civil offence. But in the Peak National Park
certain byelaws apply - you can be fined £500 for riding where you
shouldn't.
None of which is even slightly relevant to the point, which is that
taking a big group along a popular footpath on a weekend in a National
Park is amazingly bad PR for mountain biking.
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Author: mrmichaelwright
Date: 26/04/06 12:28
Always the same people in the Peaks are paranoid,like the illegal signs
that appear now and again stopping motobikes going up the roman
road.What about all that pollution from the cement works at Hope pump
out all day long.Worryed about a few tyre marks on a footpath where
there is rocks everywhere.crazy.
One of the least well informed posts i have ever read.
Hope cement works turns out steam and dust.
If you think that the edges of the peak district are covered in rocks, you have never trauled through 2ft deep Peat bogs
As for Mr Barnes, this is one of the most reckless acts of idiocy I
have ever seen on this forum. You publicise the fact that you BROKE THE
LAW of this land in the interest of cycling, in an area of particular
fragility as far as rights of way are concerned.
In what way does your ride further the cause of rights of way
campaigners? You give the message that you are going to ride footpaths
if you think you should, despite the law, what incentive does this give
the authorities to bring about change.
Disgraceful
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Author: houns
Date: 26/04/06 12:31
Good grief what next?
Bogtrotters bank holiday ride this Bank holiday Sunday
Up and down snowdon starting @ main carpark at foot of main path at 12.30pm?????
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Author: mrmichaelwright
Date: 26/04/06 12:33
forgot to mention the illegal signs that appear now and again stopping motobikes going up the roman road
these signs are placed to enforce the fact that several rights of way
in the area have been down graded in status. The signs are frequently
pulled down my MX riders and chasing the riders around uses up valuable
police, national park and national trust time.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 26/04/06 12:36
you can be fined £500 for riding where you shouldn't
Oooh, really ? I didn't know that. I saw no signs to that effect
Round my way the bylaws fix the penalty for riding on certain tracks as
exclusion for 3 days... and they marked on a large obvious sign.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 26/04/06 12:55
As for Mr Barnes, this is one of the most reckless acts of idiocy I have ever seen on this forum.
you must all be very well behaved then...
30% of the club's posted rides for 2005 contained FP elements
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Author: BadlyWiredDog
Date: 26/04/06 13:06
Simon, apart from anything else, your shorts are some of the worst
PR for mountain biking that I've ever seen. Ditto those nasty blue and
red shirts your lot ride in...
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Author: UncleNick
Date: 26/04/06 13:45
The signs are frequently pulled down my MX riders
Uninformed prejudices visible for all right there...
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Author: UncleNick
Date: 26/04/06 18:22
Tarring trail riders with the MX brush.
A trail bike and an MX bike are different things.
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Author: mrmichaelwright
Date: 26/04/06 18:25
OH i see now, good thing i'm a freeride slopestyle all mountain bike rider and not a cyclist
pedantry at it's very best, i salute you sir
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Author: UncleNick
Date: 26/04/06 19:17
If you'd used motorbiker as a general term your sarcasm would be
valid, but you didn't. You picked on a specific aspect of motorcycling.
The wrong one at that.
I'm not being pedantic, I'm just exposing your prejudices.
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Author: mrmichaelwright
Date: 26/04/06 19:26
I still fail to see your point. As far as I am concerned, the
motorcyclists to whom i refer ride bikes that look just like what the
vast majority of the populace would refer to as motorcross bikes.
Kindly explain at what point I showed any prejudice. I have first
person witnesses of these acts of vandalism and threatening behaviour
towards the authorities. Prove to me that the majority of people can
dinstinguish between 'trail' and 'motorcross' bikes and kindly explain
to me the difference. The quote to which i originaly refered to
'motorbikes'. Am i also exacting a prejudice towards people who ride
road motorbikes?
yours confusedly
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Author: weekendworrier
Date: 26/04/06 19:39
Uncle nick illustrates the issue perfectly.
I'm an MTB'er, simonfbarnes is an MTB'er.
So how do I distinguish myself from him in the prejudices of an
underinformed public who don't see a difference between us and thus
want to ban all MTB'ers from sensitive areas?
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Author: mrmichaelwright
Date: 26/04/06 19:47
I picked on a specific aspect of motorcycling as this is the one i believed to be causing the problem. So, i rephrase.
The signs are frequently pulled down my trail and motocross motorbike
riders and chasing the riders around uses up valuable police, national
park and national trust time.
better?
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Author: Routemartin
Date: 26/04/06 23:59
Nice one Simon 300+
sensitive area lol
I repeat. Stanage Edge was f**ked up by walkers and climbers years ago,
aided by national park and national trust. How many car parks? 2m wide
access path, groups of 50+ red socks!
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 27/04/06 00:22
I've talked to quite a few bikers who disregard ROW distinctions,
and members of my club have said the criticism I've had on here is a
bunch of arse - so you have to factor in that a proportion of riders
will always ignore the rules, whatever they are. If this voids the
'appeasement' method of obtaining improved access, then so be it - it
was never going to work.
Most riders in the thread have admitted to riding FPs too, but claimed
that their secretive riding is 'responsible', whereas my honesty is
not. This assumes that the powers that be, and the walking lobby is
stupid, and cannot recognise tyre tracks. I doubt this.
When I went to a planning meeting, the officials said "tell us where
you want to ride, and we'll do our best to negotiate the necessary way
leaves". They made it clear that they regularly walked the tracks, and
already had a good idea of where riders went.
It seems the Stanage fracas has mostly been about incenced mountain
bikers. I didn't have much to do with the walkers, as I was trailing
way behind taking photos. Harvey, the club chairman, came upon the
large group of walkers pictured as they we reaching the stile. They
chatted amicably, asking where we were from, and Harvey told them, and
the name of the club, and they said they were from Hull, and offered to
let us go first. Harvey said we were happy to wait, as there were quite
a few straggers. There was no intimidation (bearing in mind they
outnumbered us 2 or 3 to one), and none of them voiced any complaint.
It's ironic that it should be bikers reporting us to the National Park.
In my opinion, the regulatory process is irrelevant to biking. It
doesn't matter if the fine is £5,000,000 if there is no one to enforce
it, and I have never seen a ranger in 10 years of riding
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 27/04/06 00:44
Stanage Edge was f**ked up by walkers and climbers years ago
What's wrong with it now ? It seemed lovely to me, and showed little
sign of erosion. The byway (which was used my motocrossers when we were
there) is a bit of an eyesore, a 12' wide orange streak, but from the
cliff edge it's a BOAT.
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Author: Bionickev
Date: 27/04/06 03:06
I'd say do what you want so long as you don't hurt other people.
Life is too short not to enjoy yourself and your landscape. It is in a
constant state of flux anyway and will still be here long after we are
all gone!
Common sense, decency and consideration to others is all that is needed. Personally I say bollo cks to ROW rules.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 27/04/06 10:27
I am disappointed in the quality of this debate. In my opinion,
descending to insults always undermines one's argument (if any). I also
think it's unhelpful to question other's sincerity or to make
pronouncements about their unknowable mental states. I've been called
selfish, an idiot, a hypocrite, a troll, and told that I cannot be an
anarchist because I often nominally conform to some laws. All these
criticisms are true to to a greater or lesser extent, but are
irrelevant to the matter in hand. I've also been told I have not been
listening to the contrary case. This is untrue, I have read carefully,
and almost found myself swayed by the nearly unaminimous flood of
disapproval, to the point where I was forced to reconsider my position.
However, on reflection, I find my analysis of the situation over ROW to
be adquately pragmatic.
samuri rightly says (in a related thread) that I have
no agenda, and this is true. I don't need one. My role is essentially
reportage. I ride and I see, then I show and tell. It's unlikely that
anyone will stop me, but even if I were to drop dead tomorrow (which
would doubtless be a great relief to all of us) it would not change
anything, as my club chooses where to ride with little input from me.
By all means go along with the regulatory process if you wish, and have
sufficient patience, but realise that you cannot control the actions of
other riders, and if your success depends on that (and think that's a
big if), you are doomed to fail
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Author: sweam2
Date: 27/04/06 10:39
That'll kick things back off ....
Riders should be self controlling through an awareness of how individual actions affect the overall access.
A potential analogy to this is the BMC and nesting birds. Every year
some crags have restrictions on where you can climb for some months as
birds are nesting. These are posted in magazines and locally as well.
By and large (to my knowledge) climbers respect these bans because they
understand that it would only take a couple of "flash points" to
undermine access the rest of the time. Access for climbers can be
controversial and there is lots of potential for "cheeky climbs" as it
were; however there is less no than previously because over time the
BMC has proved to land owners that climbers can be responsible....
although Stanage is definitly over used.
By riding in a large group "where ever you want" and the ensuing debate
we have essentially shown that mountain bikers are not yet self
controlling. Hence landowners will not grant more access as "we" in the
collecttive sense will not adhere to this.
I am not sure if I have expressed myself properly there but hopefully the theme is in there.
Mark S.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 27/04/06 10:43
Riders should be self controlling through an awareness of how individual actions affect the overall access.
a hypothesis, a dream - but can you make it so ? IMO "how individual
actions affect the overall access" is conjecture - lots of assertions
have been made but little evidence provided.
Hence landowners will not grant more access
well, that's up to them, and they have their own motivations - but I suggest it doesn't rightly matter
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Author: Akhenaton
Date: 27/04/06 10:51
I have to agree with you Simon, insults always brings down the
quality of a debate. Unfortunately the thread descended pretty quickly
on the arrival of the usual vamps.
Back to the point in hand, I guess it all depends what matters the most
to you. Your own pleasure and enjoyment or safeguarding the future of
MTBing in the real countryside, not in man made playparks and the like.
I too was surprised at the vociferous nature of the opposition to your
stance and its made me wonder why, if so many people care so
passionately about the subject so little appears to be achieved in
terms of ROW expansion for riders. Perhaps it is the system, perhaps
its the weight of opposition, perhaps most riders are good at talking
the talk but not so good at the other bit, I don't know. But it strikes
me that unless we, as a community of riders, get seriously stuck in to
the ROW issue then it may be taken out of our hands all together. One
cheeky ride in the Peaks isn't the end of the world but from a 3rd
party perspective I'd humbly suggest that the Bogtrotters might want to
take the feelings and opinions of local riders and local trail issues
into consideration when planning a route with some cheeky trails. You
may not agree with other riders viewpoints but you could may show them
a little more respect.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 27/04/06 11:16
You may not agree with other riders viewpoints but you could may show them a little more respect.
hmm, shouldn't that be mutual ? Respect is one thing but conforming to
someone else's agenda is another. If the 'locals' want to reach their
own accomodation with the National Park, that's fine, and they can
rightly point out that the interlopers are a different, well documented
group, for which they should not be held responsible.
My position is nearer to: "This is what is happening, and you cannot
stop it. If the powers that be want to direct our actions, this can
only be acheived through substantive concessions that meet our needs
too. We are not out to annoy, just to enjoy the countryside"
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Author: Ianmunro
Date: 27/04/06 11:19
"how individual actions affect the overall access" is
conjecture - lots of assertions have been made but little evidence
provided.
Exactly the same could be said for your counter aguments though..
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Author: MikeD
Date: 27/04/06 11:22
Most riders in the thread have admitted to riding FPs too, but
claimed that their secretive riding is 'responsible', whereas my
honesty is not. This assumes that the powers that be, and the walking
lobby is stupid, and cannot recognise tyre tracks. I doubt this.
It assumes no such thing. In terms of the image of mountain biking to
the general outdoor-recreational public, there's a world of difference
between one or two riders using a little-used footpath on a weekday in
an area of the country that's under-served by RoW and not a popular one
with other outdoor users anyway (which is what most people are
admitting to), and a group of sixteen riders using a well-used footpath
in an already-controversial part of a National Park on a sunny weekend
(which is what you seem to take great pride in doing). I'm frankly
bewildered that you seem unable to grasp this.
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Author: sweam2
Date: 27/04/06 11:31
""how individual actions affect the overall access" is conjecture -
lots of assertions have been made but little evidence provided."
The point about including the bit on the BMC was to indicate that they
have to an extent (I am hedging my bets here I know as I'm sure there
are exceptions) shown how indidual actions can affect overall access.
Quoting from the BMC magazine.
"The National Park Authority reported no transgressions of the
VOLUNTARY nesting restrictions and commended the BMC on the
effectiveness of nesting information"
So the National Park is happy and will be sympathetic to other requests / options.
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Author: Akhenaton
Date: 27/04/06 11:35
"My position is nearer to: "This is what is happening, and you
cannot stop it. If the powers that be want to direct our actions, this
can only be acheived through substantive concessions that meet our
needs too. We are not out to annoy, just to enjoy the countryside"
Its funny because that's fairly similar to my position : ) but I don't
believe that the NP's will see any difference between one group of
riders and another and thats the problem. I do support your concept of
riding whereever you see fit but i hope you understand my reservation
that you should also use some forethought on the impact of your actions
for other bikers. Also if you are going to take that stance, affiliate
your selves to organisations that oppose that type of behaviour, not
fully inform your members of the situation and not enter into the
offical process of claiming trails (however longwinded and frustrating)
then you are leaving yourself wide open to the type of accusations that
are not defensible by merely claiming not to recognise the law on this
issue. If the you or the boggies started organsing and publicising
protest rides in NP's etc to highlight to absurdities and inadequacies
of the current system then I don't think you'd get the same sort of
response. I for one would fully support it.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 27/04/06 11:35
I'm frankly bewildered that you seem unable to grasp this.
because experience tells me otherwise - we get on fine with walkers and there's room for all.
Next time we do it I shall stop and canvass other trail users about their opinions.
already-controversial part of a National Park
Not being local we had no idea about this, though it probably wouldn't have influenced the choice of route.
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Author: TimCave
Date: 27/04/06 11:36
I'm frankly bewildered that you seem unable to grasp this.
yes
also im pretty bewildered how loads of the people who have posted seemed to have completely missed the point!
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Author: TimCave
Date: 27/04/06 11:40
Not being local we had no idea about this, though it probably wouldn't have influenced the choice of route
didnt you say that you wanted to dig up all the roads? Make non-local riding difficult i imagine.
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Author: MikeD
Date: 27/04/06 11:51
because experience tells me otherwise - we get on fine with walkers and there's room for all.
As someone mentioned previously, most people who see you won't say
anything to you. When you say you get on fine with them, you're dealing
with a self-selecting sample of affable walkers.
Next time we do it I shall stop and canvass other trail users about their opinions.
That would certainly be an interesting exercise. Whether you'd get an honest response is another question. Try it on foot.
Not being local we had no idea about this, though it probably wouldn't have influenced the choice of route.
Is that the general arrangement? Are all your rides led by people who have no idea what they're doing?
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 27/04/06 11:54
Are all your rides led by people who have no idea what they're doing?
the 'local' (from Ashton) had food poisoning :-(
I was lost all the way except the first and last few miles. I like being lost :-)
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Author: TimCave
Date: 27/04/06 11:58
I was lost all the way except the first and last few miles. I like being lost :-)[/i[
You don't say?
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Author: funkynick
Date: 27/04/06 12:01
It appears that Simon didn't know this, and I doubt the rest of the
boggies did either when they rode that path, but according to the Peak
National Park bye-laws it is actually a criminal offence to ride any
footpath, and anywhere not covered by a useable ROW, and can result in
a court appearance, a £500 fine and a criminal record...
Now then... whatever the rights or wrongs of the situation it would
just seem to be rather a foolish idea to take a group ride into such a
situation...
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 27/04/06 12:01
You don't say?
most of the places we go I've ridden more than a dozen times, so it's exciting not to have any idea what's next...
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 27/04/06 12:04
whatever the rights or wrongs
but how could we know that ? If the PNP seek to prosecute me I shall put up a spirited defence.
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Author: TimCave
Date: 27/04/06 12:07
most of the places we go I've ridden more than a dozen times, so it's exciting not to have any idea what's next...
WALL PLEASE :-)
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Author: funkynick
Date: 27/04/06 12:14
The byelaws are posted on those brown signs you get around the place, and on the start of paths etc etc...
Oh, and I believe that the PNP has enforced the bye-laws before.
In the most part though, if you come across a ranger then you just get
a gentle word in the ear and get asked to walk.. although for an
organised group ride over footpaths they might take a slightly dimmer
view of such things as it probably would be seen as taking the piss
somewhat.
On the whole the rangers are friendly bunch, who aren't out there to
delibrately spoil things, but they are bound by the rules they work to,
and am sure they would prefer to be out doing more important things
than stopping bikers having fun...
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Author: MikeD
Date: 27/04/06 12:17
If the PNP seek to prosecute me I shall put up a spirited defence.
Aye, they'd certainly be struggling to find any evidence.
Ah, hang on.
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Author: UncleNick
Date: 27/04/06 12:44
Prove to me that the majority of people can dinstinguish between
'trail' and 'motorcross' bikes and kindly explain to me the difference.
The quote to which i originaly refered to 'motorbikes'. Am i also
exacting a prejudice towards people who ride road motorbikes?
I don't need to. Your point that the majority of people can't tell the
difference illustrates my point exactly. In reality a trail bike and a
motocross bike are more different than a World Cup downhiller and an
average full suspension all-day bike.
The parallel is, as weekendworrier pointed out, that the majority of
folks see us all as MTBers and thus the actions of an irresponsible few
tar us all with the same brush.
Exactly how individual actions affect others may be conjecture, but there's a very
strong suggestion that it will be exactly the same reaction as folk
such as mrmichaelwright when he encounters groups that he is prejudiced
against, viz we'll all be tarred with the same brush, and his
prejudices will be reinforced.
I think it's worth reminding folk of the cheeky code.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 27/04/06 12:50
I think it's worth reminding folk of the cheeky code.
yeah, but sadly I'm a grown-up :-(
irresponsible few tar us all with the same brush.
perhaps 'responsibility' is in the eye of the beholder ? It's certainly
up for individual interpretation (more or less by definition)
how small a 'few' do they comprise ?
In any case they exist. Get over it.
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Author: nbt
Date: 27/04/06 13:57
Just back from a chat with the Peak Park Ranger, and the official line* is:
Posting on a internet forum at gone midnight? What a bunch of sad
*****. why don't they get some sleep then they can get out for a ride
proper instead of sitting in front of a computer?
:)
*Note: this may not be true
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 27/04/06 14:10
What a bunch of sad *****. why don't they get some sleep then
they can get out for a ride proper instead of sitting in front of a
computer?
Hmmm, I did 2 rides at the weekend, and then spent the following 2
evenings working on the photos. I sleep when I'm ready (or at work). I
believe my efforts with my photos are worthwhile.
Had the PPP nothing more useful to contribute ? Will we see a report
about the meeting ? I'm genuinely interested. What is the ranger's
email address ?
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Author: ChrisHeath
Date: 27/04/06 14:22
This is a long thread, is it any good?
Just read any one post from Simon, and another one from anyone else.
You can igonre the rest - it's the same stuff repeated again and again and again and ...
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 27/04/06 14:41
I wonder how many of the walkers that SFB saw on the day have made complaints?
once nbt gives me the ranger's email I will ask. My guess is zero...
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Author: catflap
Date: 27/04/06 14:55
No walkers complained because they were too scared of the big intimidating anarchist.
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Author: simonfbarnes
Date: 27/04/06 15:02
they were too scared of the big intimidating anarchist.
I apologise for scaring you catflap - you must be of a very nervous disposition...
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Author: TimCave
Date: 27/04/06 15:20
I wonder how many of the walkers that SFB saw on the day have made complaints?
once nbt gives me the ranger's email I will ask. My guess is zer
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